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Talk:The Winged Dreamers
Rather than an editing war how about we identify the and fix the problem? The stories listed under Connections (which should be Related stories btw), how are they related to this story, anything listed in that section should be explained, otherwise it's just a random list. --8of5 14:57, October 7, 2010 (UTC) :As I stated in the reversion - there is no explanation given in the article as to how and why these stories are related. If the person who wishes to add the links was willing to explain the additions clearly and effectually in writing, there would be no problem in adding them. -- Captain MKB 15:00, October 7, 2010 (UTC) I wrote it in the 'reason for edit' line, but you must have missed it. This is Kirk/Spock fiction that was allowed by the publisher because it was implied and not graphic. Those other two connections are other examples of Kirk/Spock fiction that were published. If you've got issues with Kirk/Spock fiction, jump in a time machine and complain to the editors. I'm just making a logical connection here. – AT2Howell 17:26, October 7, 2010 (UTC) :You wrote they were from "authorised sources" and they were "Kirk-Spock stories" -- i have no idea what that means, and it certainly is not any type of explanation. :I specified that this should be described in the article, which you have made no effort to do. :Kirk and Spock have appeared together in 79 live episodes, 21 animated episodes, half-a-dozen films, hundreds of comics, hundreds of novels, and so on. An explanation is still in order, in the article, for what makes these instances different from the whole of work that includes both the characters. :If you want to make a logical connection, you have to share what's going on in your brain that makes it logical, otherwise it is immaterial. -- Captain MKB 17:38, October 7, 2010 (UTC) Wow, I thought everyone knew. Let me explain...Kirk/Spock (aka "slash" fiction) are stories that involve a love affair between Kirk and Spock. Gay stories haven't always been 'welcome' in trek, so most were never officially published. These few examples were because the relaitionship is just implied. – AT2Howell 17:40, October 7, 2010 (UTC) :I know that you are probably well-schooled in 'don't ask don't tell' and are unsure of a way to express their camaraderie within the service. A simple written description in the article of why this stands out to you as a logical connection is all that we're asking about, but you seem to be reluctant to come out and say it. :There's also the matter of implication, since there are licensed sources that state, while Kirk and Spock share a close emotional bond, they are not and were never lovers. :Since none of these sources you describe actually describe an act of love between them I'd say this is filling in the blanks a little too readily on your part. I know this is obviously a subject that interests you, but let's try to pay due attention to the sources. :See Gene Roddenberry's novelization of The Motion Picture for Admiral Kirk's narration of their degree of closeness and then apply it to these instances, and I think you'll find the articles are related but there is not a distinctly "gay" element to it as you seem to desire there to be. -- Captain MKB 17:48, October 7, 2010 (UTC) Dude, I don't go looking for Kirk/Spock gayness, but you'd have to be blind not to see it. These short stories tended to go off the 'official' reservation quite a bit, and these two short story/poem examples just wandered in this direction. Does Kirk/Spock fiction exist? Yes. Is it official? Just this short story, a poem, and a first draft of a novel. Can we ignore it? Well I didn't scream and run in the other direction like you seem to be eager to do. Instead I offered up 'connections'. Where's the harm? Honestly, this is Star Trek, not NASCAR. I didn't think anyone would get this upset. I guess I was wrong, eh Capt? – AT2Howell 17:53, October 7, 2010 (UTC) :I'm not upset at all, I'm just trying to get you to actually explain what the links were there for. :Why are you writing these links and then edit warring with me rather than actually writing an explanation why the links are there? Our "related stories" sections usually include explanations like "this is another story about the Terran Rebellion" or "the adventures of the Excalibur are also described in". This is standard here on Memory Beta. :Let's write an explanation. Did you log into Memory Beta to start fights and personal attacks today, or work on articles? Because you haven't gotten much article writing done. In fact, even though I've written a few comments saying you should write a definition next to the links, you've resorted to turn around and personally characterize my actions in making this simple request, and personally attack and harass me. -- Captain MKB 18:03, October 7, 2010 (UTC) I'd love to be getting something done on an article or two. Had no idea you'd freak out about implied homosexuality. I make entries on the 'connections' section every day and you NEVER say a word. I connect the dots on this one, tiny, short story article, and you get five kinds of upset. Coincidence? I doubt it. You've got issues, and they should be addressed elsewhere. Leave the connection, as it IS informative, and go back to whatever you were doing before you decided to stalk me. – AT2Howell 18:08, October 7, 2010 (UTC) :Again, a personal attack. Very mature. :I have no problem with an article describing homosexuality. I'm pointing out that it hasn't been written yet. -- Captain MKB 18:11, October 7, 2010 (UTC) ::Wow. You wrote that there was an "inappropriate" relationship between Kirk and Spock. They are in love. We won't tolerate your rampant gay-bashing on this forum. -- Captain MKB 18:14, October 7, 2010 (UTC) That's command inappropriate, not personal inappropriate. It's cool by the time Titan rolls around, but not at this point. And, the official line is that nothing happened. These few publications simply suggest something happened. How is it wrong to connect these things in the connections section? – AT2Howell 18:18, October 7, 2010 (UTC) I forgive you for that oversight. I forget not everyone understands the chain of command. – AT2Howell 18:19, October 7, 2010 (UTC) :My wife and I were never in the service -- we couldn't possibly understand the closeness you are trying to describe. :I appreciate the correction, but in light of the possible confusion, perhaps a better written explanation without the word "inappropriate" would be in order. Maybe suggest it on the talk page first. -- Captain MKB 18:23, October 7, 2010 (UTC) The chain of command does not allow for people in a personal relationship to have direct authority over each other. The only example of it I know of in trek is on Titan. Are there any others? In the timeframe this story is set in, Starfleet would not have allowed Kirk and Spock to be anything more than friends. This story, that poem, and the first printing of that novel imply that there was an inappropriate command relationship between them. If we MUST have a label on the 'connections' section, let's use something like that. I'd rather we just leave it without a lable like 90% of the other 'connections' sections. – AT2Howell 18:27, October 7, 2010 (UTC) :This isn't a "connections" section -- it is a "related stories" section -- and "related stories" sections have explanations in them. Your supposition that this doesn't have to be explained is contradicted by the fact that 8of5 started this talk page asking for an explanation. Now would you really want to dispute 8of5 on that matter? I tend to think he deserves that initial point to be answered. :As to the appropriateness, we have many other cases of such relationships, so I think an article that is only tangentially related is not the proper place to discuss Starfleet's policy on the matter. The "related stories" section should really be describing the stories that are related, and briefly explaining why they are related—and not commenting on Starfleet's policy on the matter. -- Captain MKB 18:34, October 7, 2010 (UTC) We're getting nowhere here. Lets just have a vote. I have read this story, the poem, and have read about the first run of the novel. I see a relation between these stories. Do you? Answer yes or no. In one month we'll revisit this and count up the votes. Those voting should have read at least two of the three publications under discussion. See how easy that was? We should solve everything this way. – AT2Howell 18:51, October 7, 2010 (UTC) :Or we could just sort it out now: The relation to the other stories is that there was an elusion to a homosexual relationship between Kirk and Spock? Judging by the quotes now listed that seems like it is indeed hinted at and is something worth noting. If we could just write that section to explain both what the quotes are hinting at, the historical context and significance, and how that relates to the other stories, that would be great and exactly the kind of informative and well analysed information we should embrace. Making a random list of stories, or a random list of quotes, with no explanation, is rather less useful! --8of5 18:56, October 7, 2010 (UTC) That's right people, 8of5 will be tackling middle east peace next. Step right up and let the man solve your problems. What you have here is exactly what is needed. I prefered to keep the connection elusive, the Capt didn't get the connection, and it wasn't working out. So, you think like a header or something? A brief explanation? – AT2Howell 19:01, October 7, 2010 (UTC) :That is exactly the problem, we are trying to be informative, being elusive with information does not help towards that goal! The connection you have identified should include the quotes you have found as evidence, should refer to the wider issue of slash fiction to explain why that is significant, and should list the other stories you have identified (assuming they are as well evidenced) as further examples of similar situations. --8of5 19:04, October 7, 2010 (UTC) The 'love' in the poem could be superfreindship, I suppose. Follow this link, scroll down to Killing Time: http://www.well.com/~sjroby/lostbooks.html – AT2Howell 19:06, October 7, 2010 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirk/Spock – AT2Howell 19:08, October 7, 2010 (UTC) I've only noticed 2, maybe 3 works that snuck by the publisher. Anyone else know of any? Would this be a category, or would a small note under 'information' suffice? – AT2Howell 19:11, October 7, 2010 (UTC) How about: ;Related stories This is an example of a genre of Star Trek which suggests a more-than-platonic relationship between Kirk and Spock. Others include... What do you think? – AT2Howell 20:21, October 7, 2010 (UTC) It's a good start, but the more explaining, information, and context the better (here and with every edit). Something like this: *'Kirk/Spock relationship' - This story is a rare example of a licensed story that alludes to a more-than-platonic relationship between Kirk and Spock, as popularised more often in unofficial slash fiction. In one scene Spock reveals that his version of paradise is time alone on a primitive planet with Kirk. Kirk chastises Spock for verbalizing this wish in public, as he "...gives away too much." Other licensed stories which hint at this relationship include:... --8of5 23:36, October 7, 2010 (UTC) :Perfect. – AT2Howell 14:23, October 12, 2010 (UTC)